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	<title>Comments on: A Conversation About Protestants and Catholics</title>
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		<title>By: Shane Trammel</title>
		<link>http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/01/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-520</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Trammel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brett,

I think you must know by now my position on Scripture. When I say &quot;come to your own conclusion&quot; I would not expect anyone to do that any other way than through the Scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit. We need to keep in mind the following portion of scripture.
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;h2&gt;1 Corinthians 2:7-16&lt;/h2&gt;
7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God,(A) which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of(B) the rulers of this age understood this, for(C) if they had, they would not have crucified(D) the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,

   (E) &quot;What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
   nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has(F) prepared(G) for those who love him&quot;—

 10these things(H) God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even(I) the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts(J) except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now(K) we have received not(L) the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this(M) in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit,(N) interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[a]

 14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are(O) folly to him, and(P) he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The(Q) spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16(R) &quot;For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?&quot; But(S) we have the mind of Christ.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett,</p>
<p>I think you must know by now my position on Scripture. When I say &#8220;come to your own conclusion&#8221; I would not expect anyone to do that any other way than through the Scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit. We need to keep in mind the following portion of scripture.</p>
<blockquote><h2>1 Corinthians 2:7-16</h2>
<p>7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God,(A) which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of(B) the rulers of this age understood this, for(C) if they had, they would not have crucified(D) the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,</p>
<p>   (E) &#8220;What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,<br />
   nor the heart of man imagined,<br />
what God has(F) prepared(G) for those who love him&#8221;—</p>
<p> 10these things(H) God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even(I) the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts(J) except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now(K) we have received not(L) the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this(M) in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit,(N) interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[a]</p>
<p> 14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are(O) folly to him, and(P) he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The(Q) spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16(R) &#8220;For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?&#8221; But(S) we have the mind of Christ.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Brett S</title>
		<link>http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/01/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-519</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/03/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/#comment-519</guid>
		<description>Shane,

I agree with you that it was a fair attempt at answering the questions. I don&#039;t know if it was very clear because the questions weren&#039;t very clear either.

I would disagree though with the advice that you give to follow your own understanding on the issues.  It reminds me of a great problem that exists in our modern world today, of the &quot;dictatorship of moral relativism&quot;.
I would defer to Scripture on this one:

&quot;Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding&quot;
(Proverbs 3:5)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shane,</p>
<p>I agree with you that it was a fair attempt at answering the questions. I don&#8217;t know if it was very clear because the questions weren&#8217;t very clear either.</p>
<p>I would disagree though with the advice that you give to follow your own understanding on the issues.  It reminds me of a great problem that exists in our modern world today, of the &#8220;dictatorship of moral relativism&#8221;.<br />
I would defer to Scripture on this one:</p>
<p>&#8220;Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding&#8221;<br />
(Proverbs 3:5)</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Trammel</title>
		<link>http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/01/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-518</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Trammel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/03/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/#comment-518</guid>
		<description>Phil,

I did answer your question about why you should accept my interpretation. I think my answer was clear an sufficient. By the way, I do understand the Catholic doctrine on infallibility and I do not accept it as biblical. The Pope is not infallible in areas of faith and morals. So again, don&#039;t believe me, you will have to come to you own conclusion and I hope you come to the right ones. Use information available, yes, but you must come to your own understanding on issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,</p>
<p>I did answer your question about why you should accept my interpretation. I think my answer was clear an sufficient. By the way, I do understand the Catholic doctrine on infallibility and I do not accept it as biblical. The Pope is not infallible in areas of faith and morals. So again, don&#8217;t believe me, you will have to come to you own conclusion and I hope you come to the right ones. Use information available, yes, but you must come to your own understanding on issues.</p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/01/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/comment-page-1/#comment-517</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shanetrammel.com/2007/11/03/a-conversation-about-protestants-and-catholics/#comment-517</guid>
		<description>I think this will work best if you would actually answer each of my questions.  If you don’t understand what I am asking please ask me to explain it better.  I thought numbering them would help but I guess not.  I will try underlining them to make it easier for you.   Actually I couldn’t figure out how to underline so I will bold my questions, so know which ones to answer.   

I asked, “why should I believe Shane’s fallible interpretation of scripture over anyone else’s?

You wrote, “Yes, we without reservation admit to our fallibility and the fallibility of every man who has lived, is living, or will ever live this side of heaven. Jesus Christ was the only perfect man who ever did or will walk on the earth. Jesus was afterall God. ( Col. 1:19, Col. 2:9, Matt. 1:23 ).”

I think you are misunderstanding what Catholics mean by infallible or I am misunderstanding you.  When the Catholic church says that she is infallible, we basically mean that she is free from teaching error regarding faith or morals in certain situations/times.  This is not something the catholic church has earned or deserves, it is all gift.  Gift from God to better Sheppard His church.  Infallible does not mean impeccable, or being sinless or being perfect.  So for you to admit your fallibility and then talk about not being perfect has nothing to do with the question I was asking you.  You said that no “man who has lived, is living, or will ever live” is infallible.  I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.  If the Holy Spirit has never gave man the gift of infallibility than how could men like the apostle Paul or mark or peter write the scriptures?  Didn’t God protect them from error to write His Scriptures?  You do not believe the bible just fell from heaven one day do you?  I assume you don’t, so if God was able to raise up these sinful men to do infallible things like writing the bible, &lt;b&gt;then couldn’t God also raise other sinful men and fill them with the same Holy Spirit so He could make sure that His children would receive infallible interpretations of the Word, Yes or No?&lt;/b&gt;    


First I agree that “truth can be found and it is the responsibility of each individual to seek and find the truth” and “if we seek God we will find Him” and “knowing the truth will set us free.” 

With that said, lets pretend I was a good Jewish Berean and I eagerly accepted the oral teaching of the Apostle Paul and became a Christian.  So after a couple years of growing in Christ, one of my Christian bothers and I had a disagreement about doctrine.  Lets say we disagreed on if the new jewish converts had to be circumcised.  After arguing for awhile I saw the apostle Paul down the street building a tent.  So I went over there and asked him what I should do.  From what I understand you saying, you believe Paul would say that I should just be a berean.  I should open up my bible (which I wouldn’t have for a number of years later) and pray to the holy spirit so that I will just come to the right belief, correct?  So back to the story.  After hearing what Paul said, I wanted to make sure I understood him correctly, so I asked him what I should do if my brother still doesn’t agree with me.  According you he should say, “just tell him to be a good berean”  My question for you &lt;b&gt;Is that really how Christ set up the authority in the Church, Yes or No?&lt;/b&gt;

Back to my original questions.   &lt;b&gt;“why i should believe Shane’s fallible interpretation of scripture over anyone else’s?  You are giving me your interpretation, which since you are not infallible could be wrong. Since you could be wrong, you could be wrong about the Catholic Church, which is why i wonder why your interpretation is better than anyone else’s????”&lt;/b&gt;   Since you are not answering this question, I will just assume that you are not just avoiding answering me, I will assume I haven’t been clear in my question.   So try this:  Would you agree that in reality you are not really relying on scripture alone, you are relying on your individual judgment, your fallible opinion, as to what Scripture says.  It is your opinion of what Scripture says, which is the final authority, not Scripture itself.  &lt;b&gt;Do you agree or disagree, if disagree why is this not true?&lt;b&gt;

Regarding your answer to question 2.  I have no idea who asked that question, but it wasn’t me.  The primacy of Peter has something to do with our conversation, but we are not there yet.  We are talking about how you as a sola scriptura Christian view the church and issue of authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this will work best if you would actually answer each of my questions.  If you don’t understand what I am asking please ask me to explain it better.  I thought numbering them would help but I guess not.  I will try underlining them to make it easier for you.   Actually I couldn’t figure out how to underline so I will bold my questions, so know which ones to answer.   </p>
<p>I asked, “why should I believe Shane’s fallible interpretation of scripture over anyone else’s?</p>
<p>You wrote, “Yes, we without reservation admit to our fallibility and the fallibility of every man who has lived, is living, or will ever live this side of heaven. Jesus Christ was the only perfect man who ever did or will walk on the earth. Jesus was afterall God. ( Col. 1:19, Col. 2:9, Matt. 1:23 ).”</p>
<p>I think you are misunderstanding what Catholics mean by infallible or I am misunderstanding you.  When the Catholic church says that she is infallible, we basically mean that she is free from teaching error regarding faith or morals in certain situations/times.  This is not something the catholic church has earned or deserves, it is all gift.  Gift from God to better Sheppard His church.  Infallible does not mean impeccable, or being sinless or being perfect.  So for you to admit your fallibility and then talk about not being perfect has nothing to do with the question I was asking you.  You said that no “man who has lived, is living, or will ever live” is infallible.  I just want to make sure I understand you correctly.  If the Holy Spirit has never gave man the gift of infallibility than how could men like the apostle Paul or mark or peter write the scriptures?  Didn’t God protect them from error to write His Scriptures?  You do not believe the bible just fell from heaven one day do you?  I assume you don’t, so if God was able to raise up these sinful men to do infallible things like writing the bible, <b>then couldn’t God also raise other sinful men and fill them with the same Holy Spirit so He could make sure that His children would receive infallible interpretations of the Word, Yes or No?</b>    </p>
<p>First I agree that “truth can be found and it is the responsibility of each individual to seek and find the truth” and “if we seek God we will find Him” and “knowing the truth will set us free.” </p>
<p>With that said, lets pretend I was a good Jewish Berean and I eagerly accepted the oral teaching of the Apostle Paul and became a Christian.  So after a couple years of growing in Christ, one of my Christian bothers and I had a disagreement about doctrine.  Lets say we disagreed on if the new jewish converts had to be circumcised.  After arguing for awhile I saw the apostle Paul down the street building a tent.  So I went over there and asked him what I should do.  From what I understand you saying, you believe Paul would say that I should just be a berean.  I should open up my bible (which I wouldn’t have for a number of years later) and pray to the holy spirit so that I will just come to the right belief, correct?  So back to the story.  After hearing what Paul said, I wanted to make sure I understood him correctly, so I asked him what I should do if my brother still doesn’t agree with me.  According you he should say, “just tell him to be a good berean”  My question for you <b>Is that really how Christ set up the authority in the Church, Yes or No?</b></p>
<p>Back to my original questions.   <b>“why i should believe Shane’s fallible interpretation of scripture over anyone else’s?  You are giving me your interpretation, which since you are not infallible could be wrong. Since you could be wrong, you could be wrong about the Catholic Church, which is why i wonder why your interpretation is better than anyone else’s????”</b>   Since you are not answering this question, I will just assume that you are not just avoiding answering me, I will assume I haven’t been clear in my question.   So try this:  Would you agree that in reality you are not really relying on scripture alone, you are relying on your individual judgment, your fallible opinion, as to what Scripture says.  It is your opinion of what Scripture says, which is the final authority, not Scripture itself.  <b>Do you agree or disagree, if disagree why is this not true?</b><b></p>
<p>Regarding your answer to question 2.  I have no idea who asked that question, but it wasn’t me.  The primacy of Peter has something to do with our conversation, but we are not there yet.  We are talking about how you as a sola scriptura Christian view the church and issue of authority.</b></p>
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