The Foursquare Church Embraces Heresy
October 23, 2007
Advance, the official publication of The Foursquare Church, embraces heresy in the September 2007 issue.
In a section of Advance called Famous People of Faith (Interesting tidbits about famous followers of Christ), you will find a favorable reference to G.K. Chesterton.
Chesterton became a Catholic later in life and continued championing Christian values through his life and writings.
Excuse me, did they say Chesterton championed Christian values? I don’t think so! Let me share with you just a few of the false ideas the Catholic Chesterton held to and died with I presume.
- Church tradition equal to or even above Holy Scripture (the Bible)
- The possibility of theistic evolution
- A faith-plus-works doctrine of justification (salvation)
- The Catholic Church can forgive sins
- the Real Presence of Christ in the Mass
- Prayers to dead saints for the release of dead loved ones from Purgatory
- Writings suggest he did not support the literal inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures
- Infallibility of the Pope
- Traditional Catholic doctrine of Mary
- veneration of Mary
- Immaculate Conception (Mary born without original sin)
Do I really need to say anymore. Why would an evangelical christian denomination like the Foursquare Church point anyone to such a biblically confused person as Chesterton. I will say, it is no suprise to me. I suppose the Foursquare Church is not unlike others in the ‘charismatic’ movement who embrace the Catholic Church.
Posted in Catholicism, Foursquare Church, G.K. Chesterton
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October 23rd, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Hello to the blogger who knocks folks around by your own theological standards. The scripture warns us to discern yes, but for you to knock the power of God working through individuals and denominations because you don’t personally think signs and wonders and the power of the holy spirit is a promise for today, is treading dangerous ground personally. That to me is like buying a fancy car and not filling the car with Gas!
I lived a great life believing as you….however it was a fruitless life, looking around criticizing others. When the Lord showed me through scripture to allow HIS Holy Spirit lead me-great things began to happen in my life and in the lives I was ministering to!
My prayer is that personal revelation will come to you!
Through dreams and visitation of God (as in Joel) and HIS truth as revealed in Acts and throughout the new testament. May the foundations of your paradigm shift! Perhaps you will pray for someone and they will be HEALED!!!
Blessings, Amanda
October 24th, 2007 at 12:31 am
Amanda,
This blog does not deny the power of God. You will not find a single post where the power of God is denied. We do call out ministries who make false claims, teach false doctrines, and claim to operate in God’s power when they don’t.
This blog does not deny that the Holy Spirit operates today. With everything in us we believe miracles, signs, and wonders are for today and do happen. We do however see many ministries operating under a counterfeit Gospel (counterfeit evangelism, miracles, preaching, etc.)
We reach out to the lost on the streets of cities all over the US and Europe. We pray for the people we minister to that they may be delivered from all that separates them from God. We share the Gospel of Jesus Christ all the time. We love those in error so much we are willing to make it known to them. We pray for revival in God’s people so they may reach the billions that are lost and going to hell. Of that number, it is fair to estimate that almost two billion are Catholic or Muslim and we love them enough to address their need for the truth.
We hate abortion and other injustices in the world. We are not only to proclaim the Gospel but minister to the physical needs of people (food, clothing, shelter, etc.)
We have a particular concern for Catholics because, by most, they are considered Christians and going to heaven. Most Christians would not consider the Catholic Church as mission field, we do.
Editor
October 24th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
A couple of questions for this blog.
1. I realize that Shane Trammel has been blogging (writing?) since at least March 2007, but what gives him more authority to interpret scripture that GK Chesterton (who is regarded by many as the greatest English language writer of the 20th century)?
2. At exactly what date in history did the Catholic Church become apostate, and exactly who was is that determined that fact?
3. What secret knowledge about being Christian does Shane Trammel have that in all of his years of study Joseph Ratzinger has not been able to acquire?
October 24th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
How do I get myself added to the “heresy/apostate list” so I can be listed right alongside Billy Graham and some other men of God? I want to be included in the “CATEGORIES” list. Sign me up.
amanda cares’ husband
October 24th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Catholics may not necesarily adhere to their docrine and Catholic beliefs to the exent that they won’t hear the salvation message and receive it… some will recieve Christ but still continue with some Catholic traditions that you or I may not appreciate. Maybe this makes them hypocritical to their own belief system, I don’t know. My wife knows some Catholics who have asked Jesus to come into their heart as Lord and Saviour. I have only been to one Catholic funeral in my whole life and the ritualistic hail Marys did cause some tension in me that caused me to squeeze my wife’s hand pretty tight. I’m not saying I agree with Cathlics, but I would be careful to deny that some are saved right there in the midst of that stuff. It’s not God’s grace + a perfect belief system. Another thing. Truth + relationships helps more than just truth presented alone when it comes to how you present the gospel…not that I’m some expert…but that’s what I’ve heard from Josh McDowell. Maybe that’s someone else you can’t associate with, not even the person’s ministry. Ok, whatever. If you can lead more people to Christ more power to you. Go for it. Later. amanda cares’ husband
October 25th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Bret, good luck on having Shane answer any of your questions. its his blog so he can write what he wants, but if you want to discuss some of his beliefs it seems you just get a deaf ear. i have been hoping he would answer my questions under the post he did for mother teresa.
I agree with what the editor wrote to amanda. I am glad he is sticking up for truth and is willing to reach out to catholics because he believes we are in error. The reason why he reaches out to catholics sounds like the same reason i visit his site- I love my seperated brothers and sisters in Christ aenough to address their need for truth.
Brett, one last thing in regards to your questions. It isnt so much that GK Chesterton or Joseph Ratzinger are special or know more than someone else, they are only “special” or can be sure that are in the truth is by submitting themselves to the Word of God that is being faithfully taught in the Catholic Church.
But you do bring up a good question, If Shane is not infalliable (he admitted that in an early post), why should we believe his interpertation of Scripture over the Catholic Church’s or anyone elses for that matter? if you are not infalliable how do you know for sure that you are right and we are wrong?
October 25th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
How do I get myself on the heresy hunter’s list next to Billy Graham and other men of God?
October 25th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
There are some who say I don’t answer their questions and I would like to address that. I answer as many questions as I can given the time I have. I will try and catch up soon.
Please be patient, if you are really looking for a response from me I will try and get to it as soon as I can. If you just want to gripe about it, then you will have to deal with that on your own.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Brett,
I made an attempt to answer your question directly but my email was bounced back. We do not allow for undeliverable email accounts on this blog. Maybe there is just a problem with your email account so we will over look the issue this time and answer your question here on the blog.
1) I am not interested in how good a writer GKC was. This is not a debate on literature. In this case we need to be dealing with biblical truth, the true Gospel.
2) I don’t know when the Catholic Church became apostate. Maybe it was 200 AD, 300 AD, I don’t know. What I do know is the official dogma of the Catholic Church is in serious error and the church is apostate. The word of God is the standard by which we determine all things and when we test the Catholic Church against Scripture, it is found wanting.
3) I have no secret knowledge. The word of God is my guide. We are to know the truth and it will set us free. Paul over and over again encouraged people to grown in the wisdom and knowledge of God. Did you notice the wisdom and knowledge, not just knowledge. Many men have more knowledge than me, they may not however be as wise. If we look at scripture, wisdom did not always come with age but through God (David, Daniel, Joseph, etc.)
4) If one is honest, one will have to say that my approach to exposing error and proclaiming truth is gentle compared to most. My focus is contending for the faith (Jude 3) not on ugly language and degrading people. I deal more in facts than I do in opinion. I do share my opinion from time to time, but I am more interested in sharing the truth.
I hope that helps you some.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Thanks Shane, I appreciate your time spent answering my questions and you do strike me as an honest man. Don’t know why the email was bounced, but I entered a second account. Thanks for being generous with your time. I enjoy reading your blog, and I appreciate your love for Sacred Scripture.
1. (OK, let’s put aside credentials and knowledge). Do you have any specific examples (facts) of anything that GKC wrote that contradicted the “true gospel” or is his case simply a matter of guilt by association?
2. I can appreciate what Paul wrote about wisdom and knowledge because I am a simple man, and I don’t have all that much of either. If it so easy to “determine all things” from Scripture what is a simple guy like me to do when as Peter himself said about Paul’s writings “In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.” 2Peter3:16
3. As (Jude 3) states, if the Word of God was “once for all” handing on to the saints (apostles); How did the apostles contend for the faith when they didn’t have the New Testament to test things against?
“I could not understand why these romancers never took the trouble to find out a few elementary facts about the thing they denounced. The facts might easily have helped the denunciation, where the fictions discredited it. There were any number of real Catholic doctrines I should then have thought disgraceful to the Church… But the enemies of the Church never found these real rocks of offence. They never looked for them. They never looked for anything… Boundless freedom reigned; it was not treated as if it were a question of fact at all… It puzzled me very much, even at that early stage, to imagine why people bringing controversial charges against a powerful and prominent institution should thus neglect to test their own case, and should draw in this random way on their own imagination… I never dreamed that the Roman religion was true; but I knew that its accusers, for some reason or other, were curiously inaccurate.”
GK Chesterton
October 26th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Brett,
Thank you for you honest desire to discuss this issue. I will address your most recent question as soon as I can. Let me say in brief, I do have specific issues with GKC and what he wrote. I will share some of that when I can respond again.
I will also say in brief, I can appreciate your bringing out what Peter said about some of Paul’s writings. We just need to keep in mind he said hard to understand, not impossible to understand. Finally, I do not claim to have a complete understanding of all scripture. I will be the first to be open about areas I am not clear on.
God Bless,
Shane
October 26th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
It seems to me that the comments are getting a little off topic here. In the original post, Shane addresses nine topics (or beliefs) that are embraced by many. It is clear that, even though these topics are hotly debated, they have absolutely no basis in scripture. It would be more productive if we talked about these in particular, since that is the bigger issue.
GKC’s belief in these things does not make them true. So, we must look at these issues directly, not GKC’s viewpoint of them.
Can anyone (who is of a different viewpoint) actually provide scriptural evidence that these beliefs are valid?
Thanks for your time.
Michael
October 27th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Michael,
In charity, if one accuses a dead man (who can not respond to the accusations) of writing falsehoods, woudn’t one with a different viewpoint be responsible for the evidence that his beliefs were NOT valid?
October 28th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Brett,
Thats a fair question. I’d be happy to discuss any one of the nine points which were initially raised in the post. I’ll let you pick which one you want to start with.
October 28th, 2007 at 12:11 am
Brett,
Michael provides a very useful comment here. If you really want to have a fruitful conversation, pick one of the nine original points and Michael will address it. I will chime in if I see an area where I might add value to the point being discussed.
October 29th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Sure, my original comments were intended to defend a man who was unfairly attacked, but OK.
1. Church tradition equal to or even above Holy Scripture (the Bible)
2. The possibility of theistic evolution
3. A faith-plus-works doctrine of justification (salvation)
4. The Catholic Church can forgive sins
These first four points are not, were not, and never have been doctrines of the Catholic Church; so no use discussing them. (maybe they came from the Four Square Catechism?)
NUMBER 5 I’LL COME BACK TO ANYTIME !
6. Didn’t know there was such a thing as a “dead saint”.
7. Again, can’t defend a charge with out any evidence.
8. Often misunderstood doctrine because of it’s limited scope, according to Catholic doctrine the Pope is a sinful man and needs a savoir just like the rest of us.
9. Misunderstood doctrines would be an understatement:) Jesus Christ loved and honored his mother. I want to follow Jesus, and I as a Christian want to be like Jesus.
Back to number 5. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, as the Church has consistently taught for 2000 years is “the source and summit of Christian worship”.
Paul description of Scriptural worship for Christians is pretty clear in 1Corinthians 10 & 11. The commands of Jesus Christ (about his body and blood) are pretty clear in John 6. In fact, no where is it taught in Sacred Scripture that Jesus Christ IS NOT PRESENT in the Holy Eucharist.
Is The Real Presence easy to understand? (No, after all it is a miracle). But I believe God’s Grace is always calling us to FAITH, and not to rely on our own understanding.
“The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” 1Corinthians 10:16
ps – This is not Scripture, but by a very well-respected historian, who’s not a Catholic, and this is how he summarizes what the early Church believed about the Eucharist:
“Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pg 440).
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:33 am
Shane,
I love Jesus, I believe in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, I support Mike Huckabee for president, and you and I probably have a lot in common.
Somehow I don’t think Chesterton would have minded you calling him a “biblically confused person” that did not “champion Christian values”, provided you had the courage to defend the charge.
“Creeds must disagree: it is the whole fun of the thing. If I think the universe is triangular, and you think it is square, there cannot be room for two universes. We may argue politely, we may argue humanely, we may argue with great mutual benefit; but, obviously, we must argue. Modern toleration is really a tyranny. It is a tyranny because it is a silence. To say that I must not deny my opponent’s faith is to say I must not discuss it . . . It is absurd to have a discussion on Comparative Religions if you don’t compare them.” GK Chesterton – “The History of Religions,” The Illustrated London News, 10 October 1908
“The modern world will accept no dogmas upon any authority; but it will accept any dogmas on no authority. Say that a thing is so, according to the Pope or the Bible, and it will be dismissed as a superstition without examination. But preface your remark merely with “they say” or “don’t you know that?” or try (and fail) to remember the name of some professor mentioned in some newspaper; and the keen rationalism of the modern mind will accept every word you say.” – GK Chesterton
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 am
Hey guys,
I’ve been doing some traveling and working a great deal lately, but I do look forward to some free time this week. I will be able address each of these issues on Monday or Tuesday. Thanks for your patience!
Michael
May 31st, 2008 at 8:54 am
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2008/2791_How_A_Roman_Catholic_AntiCalvinist_Can_Serve_Todays_PoetCalvinists/
In the spirit of consistency, I’m waiting for the article claiming that John Piper has embraced heresy by a favorable reference to the biblically confused GK Chesterton.
June 1st, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Brett,
Anyone who reads the Piper article about Chesterton will see that Piper is actually saying he does not agree with Chesterton on much of anything. Quite the opposite is true.
June 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 am
Thanks, for the reply. Sorry Shane, but if you’ve never read Chesterton, you are missing Dr. Piper’s point completely. Piper is celebrating Chesterton’s birthday and RECOMMENDING his book “Orthodoxy”, because it is a great writing on the mystery of orthodox Christian faith. Sure (as a good protestant) Piper is quick to point out a few doctrinal issues that he disagrees with:
1. Predestination – I would tend to agree with Piper that Chesterton probably goes too far in criticizing Calvinists on this point. Predestination was 1st and has always been orthodox catholic doctrine; though some Calvinists go overboard in systematizing (confusing) it, instead of just appreciating the biblical mystery.
2. “Folly of Roman Catholic Sacramentalism” – Sorry, without going into detail I’m completely on Chesterton’s side on this one. I think Chesterton would say that God’s Grace through the sacraments allowed him to view the orthodox Christian faith like he did.
Piper’s point was that even if these 2 “catholic doctrines” exist in Chesterton; do not let that deter you from the truth and beauty in which Chesterton writes about the biblical Christian faith. I think Piper recognizes that (even though Chesterton is catholic), he typifies the biblical JOY and HOPE that all Christians are called to.
I believe that both Dr. John Piper and GK Chesterton are Christians, and they are both a heck of a lot smarter than me. And I hope (thanks be to God) to spend eternity with both of them in heaven.
Thanks again Shane for taking the time to reply.
August 14th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
I have a friend that came of Catholicism & had a born again experience. He was Charismatic in theology. The Foursquare church is classified as a “Pentecostal” church at least in it’s roots & history. My grandmother is a classical Pentecostal & is quite bothered by Romanist Catholic tradition. In fact, if you go back 20-50 years ago , you will find a much more suspicious view in any Protestant tradition concerning Roman Catholicism. It is because we are further removed away from the Reformation. It doesn’t sting us anymore. While I love the Catholics I certainly am not interested in embracing some of their questionable practices. We also need to remember that we Protestants don’t have a perfect church history too. We also have had our share of false doctrine & traditions of men.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Servus!
You can be born again in the Catholic Church you just might not be square. The protestants don’t operate a monopoly.
There are enough people out there looking for god than wasted energy on whether the foursquare church is promoting heresy. Chesterton did the best he could living out his faith in his life time. Let god decide which weeds to pull. By trying to pull weeds out of the foursquare church, you are pulling on a lot of good crops.
peace